NSFW Pod 032 - Muse Discussion

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[00:00:00] Matthew Holliday: Good day, everyone. And welcome back to the not safe for work photography podcast. There are thousands of models and photographers, creating content, using modern platforms and taking control of their own creative life. Today I have on two previous guests, Kristie Conner and buck Remington, Kristie as a fetish friendly freelance model. 

And buck is the dark morbid and risky alter ego of an otherwise clean cut art photographer today. We're discussing a common trope among artists, the muse. So you guys end tonight.  

[00:00:47] Buck Remington: I am.  

[00:00:50] Matthew Holliday: Gosh, that's not what you were sitting out, just so, so today we're discussing the muse relationship and I figured we'd start off with just kind of a short definition and the brief history actually. I had set up to have this conversation with another model about 12 months ago. And she ended up bailing, but I had this huge long like monologue about the meters. 

And I was like, all right, we can't do that. That's too much. So we're going to. Two things. The definition, a person, especially a woman who is a source of artistic inspiration and the history muses, where the nine goddesses who symbolize the arts, science, and literature, all were daughters of Zeus and limousine. 

Zeus really got around didn't they, he found himself a lot of music so to speak.  

[00:01:45] Buck Remington: I mean, if, if it had a whole bucket, it didn't have to be a gallery. 

[00:01:53] Matthew Holliday: So the inspiration was pretty definition of aspiration was pretty broad there. Alright, so a definition is fine, but what does the actual amuse relationship look like? And you Christy reached out to me because she specifically wanted to talk about the fact that the two of you have a muse and artist's relationship. So what does it look like?  

[00:02:17] Kristie Conner: I think for me, I learned how it was the first like three or four years of me being in this industry. There's a lot of guys with cams, which we all know what that means. And. For them. I think it's just, they want a piece of ass and they want it regular and they want to use that word to cover it up. 

However, professional photographers who were in it for better reasons and being very serious about what they do. it as an art form of. I see it as someone who fits your description of who you'd want in a lot of your work, rather than just one shooter had done, because they have a lot of the like features and other things that you're looking for. 

So you make it a regular thing if you could, or maybe that makes sense. 

[00:03:12] Matthew Holliday: Buck.  

[00:03:13] Buck Remington: I'm going to reflect a lot of what Christie. Between us. I mean, we kind of grew into it, you know, it, wasn't just something like, Hey, let's do this and then just flip the switch overnight. But you know, coming at it from the photographer perspective or from the artist's perspective to me, it's having somebody that you really know and trust and know what you're going to get art wise, that you can go to with crazy ideas and say, Hey, I don't even know if this is going to work. 

I want to try it. Being pretty confident that that person is going to be like, yeah, let's try it. And then also to be able to be there for that person, that models aren't on, on an island, you know, they're not just, you know, mechanical things to go take pictures of, they have their own thoughts and ideas. 

And so the give and take of that relationship is being there for them. When they say, Hey, I have this thing that I want to shoot, that I don't really feel comfortable. You know, somebody I just met and, you know, being able to be there for them when they come to you and maybe it's not your style, but you can make it work. 

And maybe it'll give you inspiration for something that the two of you ended up creating something well beyond what either of you had ever imagined. 

[00:04:23] Matthew Holliday: It's interesting that both of you kind of focused on the long-term relationship and you specifically mentioned trust, but I didn't hear anybody mention obsession.  

[00:04:32] Kristie Conner: Absolutely not. 

[00:04:36] Buck Remington: No, I'm, I'm obsessed with Corvettes and airplanes. That's a whole different thing.  

[00:04:44] Matthew Holliday: Interesting. 

[00:04:46] Buck Remington: That's different.  

[00:04:49] Matthew Holliday: That's fair. Yeah. Looking at a lot of content online about muses, the vast majority of it seems to just be a synonym for lover. So how has the muse relationship different. from that, that online  

[00:05:04] Buck Remington: I'll go first on this one. I feel like it's just what, what people put into it. And, you know, I was looking at the, a lot of the historical examples that you brought up on the, on the notes. And whereas, you know, in those situations, you know, the art that was created was absolutely tremendous. The. You know, even public knowledge of that. 

It's, you know, you question, how much was the muse relationship? How much, how much of it was just a cover for an affair? And I think like all things, I mean, I think like all things, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle and you know, maybe a little column, a, maybe a little column B maybe more of one, maybe more of the other, depending on, you know, the historical context. 

So I think it really comes down to each individual relationship and how it plays. And what communications happen early on. And, you know, even in the case of Christy and I, what variables change as we go on I don't want to get too far ahead, but you know, one of, one of the other things you mentioned in the notes was, you know, outside partners and Christie, and I had a major change in our artist's muse relationship once my partner and I decided to go back to being monogamous and, and so. 

Being able to adapt and overcome things like that. I think plays into that relationship just as much as any textbook or online definition. 

[00:06:26] Matthew Holliday: I need a bear girls mean for there. Yeah. That's that's interesting. I don't, I don't know that I've ever had a relationship that I would classify as a, as a strictly muse relationship. But I did have somebody that I shot with quite a bit when I first started and it started off as kind of a, like an arrangement of convenience. She wanted to be a model. 

I wanted to be a photographer. We lived pretty close to each other. We got along and were super compatible. So it was just easy.  

[00:06:57] Kristie Conner: Yeah. 

[00:06:58] Matthew Holliday: And then, yeah, and then after we chucked together, like three, four or five times, then she started, you know, coming to me with ideas. And this is kind of where you're talking about, where you were talking about a buck with like the trust thing. And we started talking about like, well, what if we did this? And then she started having more input. I found a lot of models. Generally. Don't try to have any input. Even if you ask them, they're like, eh, you know, I'm here to, maybe it's a trust thing. I could very well see that not being, I, you know, don't trust necessarily that because dudes are dudes.  

[00:07:29] Buck Remington: Right. 

[00:07:29] Kristie Conner: I feel that if, when it comes to what you were talking about with them, not having much input I feel like whenever you say that they don't have much and they're like, eh, it's okay. Like I trust your opinion, whatever. I think that's whenever they naturally kind of treat the the shoot where the work is just like their job. 

And they're like, okay, well, it's, you know, money in my pocket onto the next one. This is my job. And they kind of treat it as that. 

[00:07:56] Matthew Holliday: Does it even need to be defined to, do you, do you need to define a relationship as a mutual relationship or does it typically happen and maybe you notice that. kind of later on.  

[00:08:05] Kristie Conner: I agree with the second part of. 

[00:08:09] Matthew Holliday: Yeah, looking back at it. You're like, oh,  

[00:08:12] Buck Remington: And I think also it's kind of a, kind of a label of convenience. 'cause like, you know, I would, I would say, you know, even going off the classical definition, Christy is definitely my muse, but I've been in situations with, you know, some of the other models that you've had in your program that are fairly local to me, that, you know, I've worked with a couple of times and sometimes like, I'll throw something out on Instagram. 

Hey, I have this crazy idea. And they're always the first one to be like, oh, I'll do that. And we'll try to coordinate a place in time. And so, so just kind of like passively, I'll say, Hey, you know, this other model is one of my favorite news and knowing full well that I'm using that term very loosely and colloquially because I don't have that same level of relationship that I have with Christy or my primary partner or somebody else who's significant in my life.  

[00:09:04] Matthew Holliday: So you're allowed to have multiple muses. It's not a, it's not a, it's not like a marriage where you just get one and that's it.  

[00:09:13] Buck Remington: And that sounds like a terrible idea if it is, 

[00:09:17] Kristie Conner: I think you're allowed to have more than one. I mean, there's different body types and features and personalities to everyone. And I feel like everything that you want doesn't fit into one person when it comes to muses necessarily. 

[00:09:29] Buck Remington: and, and going off of that, you know, I'm not going to be upset at all. A model that I really enjoy working with has another favorite photographer that they enjoy working with now. Okay, great. That's part of how all this works.  

[00:09:45] Matthew Holliday: All right. That's that's interesting because there was a essay that I read last night that specifically called out that what the term muse comes, the idea of possessive and exclusivity and a lot of the historic relationships, although several of them did work with multiple artists. So there's you don't either, you guys see muse as being particularly confining or possessive or exclusive.  

[00:10:10] Buck Remington: Not in brackets.  

[00:10:12] Matthew Holliday: That's fair. Yeah, I read that essay cause it just came up as I was searching news-related stuff. But again, like I said, a lot of the historic ones, when it talked about various people that were involved with famous artists, they, they worked with other people too. So it wasn't like, it sounds more like just a bad relationship. 

So how did your muse relationship develop.  

[00:10:34] Buck Remington: I want Christi to go first on this one. I want to hear. 

[00:10:40] Kristie Conner: It's hard for me to put it into words. Me and buck, we found each other, met each other, had a initial first shoot. We found out that our personalities are completely opposite, but also the same. And we have a lot of conceptual ideas that are very Similar, I guess. And so over that time, after the first shoot, I was like, this cannot be a one and done shoot. 

Like I need to, you know, work with this man. More like we got along very well. He has great photos. He's very open-minded to everything that I would love to shoot the good, the bad, the ugly, and. From then on out, like, it's just kind of noticed that it just kept going over time and it didn't stop. So it's just, he's like the main one that I shoot with now. 

And even though the distance there, I feel like when the distance is there, it doesn't really matter if you really want to shoot with someone just as if it was a relationship like work or person. 

[00:11:49] Matthew Holliday: Any comments buck.  

[00:11:51] Buck Remington: No, I think that's fantastic. As I would have said the same thing in about 18 times as many words. 

[00:11:58] Kristie Conner: I have all day. 

[00:12:02] Matthew Holliday: So how do you sustain that relationship, especially now that you guys are so far apart?  

[00:12:07] Buck Remington: Creativity and communication. 

[00:12:10] Kristie Conner: Yeah. 

[00:12:10] Buck Remington: I mean, I'll, I'll check my phone at work or I'll wake up and I'll in the morning and I'll, I'll see a message from Christie where she'll send me, like, I've got this idea. Bam. There it is. All right. Let's start looking at open weekends to plan a road trip, 

[00:12:25] Kristie Conner: Yeah. 

[00:12:26] Buck Remington: and then I'll do the same thing to her. 

Like, Hey, I want to do this thing. That's like crazy off the wall. And you know, maybe it's weird. Maybe it's discussing, maybe it's utterly graphic and intense. Like every time it's like, no matter what I throw out or she's like, I'm there for it. So. 

[00:12:42] Kristie Conner: day, all day and tomorrow, dude.  

[00:12:46] Matthew Holliday: It's interesting. You mentioned the, the gross and the graphic. Well, so in this, in this, I was reviewing the. Pamphlet that came with this specific exhibition. And one of the things that it seemed to posit is that artists tended to do more explicit work than normal with their muses.  

[00:13:07] Kristie Conner: I think that all comes from the trust within that relationship. 

[00:13:12] Buck Remington: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's absolutely a matter of the comfort and. 'cause cause even, even as a photographer, even if there's an idea that I have, that is more explicit, I'm not going to bounce that off of just any model that, you know, I'm negotiating a first shoot with for certain, even if we've shot once or twice, you know, if that comfort and that energy and that level isn't there. 

I'm not going to feel comfortable even bringing that idea up because you know, now I have to worry about what's this person going to turn around and say to their friends and their contacts. And, you know, it takes something maybe, maybe out of context. So what I was actually trying to get to, whereas, you know, with Kristy, I trust that, you know, even if she doesn't get exactly what I'm saying, she might say, okay, well there's gotta be something here, break it down for me in a different way. 

[00:14:04] Matthew Holliday: All right. Do either you have a significant other. and how do they feel about this relationship? 

[00:14:12] Kristie Conner: have a significant other. actually the same one that I was with whenever I spoke with you last year, crazy how we met. And so we've been in a poly relationship since we've been together for the last five years. He is a photographer by trade. And so I think within our relationship, we basically just love seeing each other's work. Whether that's with another partner or just like fashion on the streets or whatever. Like, we really have a creative love for each other's minds. And so whenever it comes to a shoot with book my partner is very aware and understanding and respectful of like my relationship with him and that me and him again, come up with anything and everything. 

And we're not afraid of. that whenever it comes to it. So he's very supportive of my work and shooting with him regularly because it is way more safe at the end of the day, then a random guy off the street who you've never met, or it could be a bad situation. So I think we're more positive about it than a lot of people would do. 

[00:15:26] Buck Remington: I have a partner also, and her and I met through poly community. She's actually. Without going into too much information that would disclose identity. She is in a position of leadership and one of the polyamory communities within our local geographic area. Very outspoken, very pro Polly. And at the time that we met, we met at a friend's birthday. We had some overlapping circles. We kind of knew of each other. We were close enough that Facebook was already recommending us to each other, even though we'd never met. So we were kind of remotely on each other's radar. And at the time I was, I was more of an ENM. I wasn't truly a poly, I didn't really have a, a solid foundational relationship, but I. 

Several partners that I considered partners and several things that were kind of fluid and would come and go. And so it was always, you know, upfront communication first, you know, safe, same risks risk aware, consent, things like that. And, you know, just striking that balance between. No, not really being a single Playboy, but also not really boxing myself into any one particular mold. 

And so when we met, you know, everything just kind of hit off and just jelled and flu, you know, flu. And we started talking and at the time she had three other partners. I had three people that I considered partners. Like I said, several, several others beyond that. And just kinda got a feel for our situation. 

And we started dating and hanging out and dating and hanging out. And for what both of us were looking for in, you know, if you look at, you know, multiple forms of follow, you have fluid, poly, and kind of a hierarchical folly for what both of us were looking for and what would be a primary partner in hierarchical poly. 

Like we started checking like all of each other's boxes and the boxes that weren't being checked for very insignificant boxes. And it's like, holy hell, how did I find. Almost everything that I need in a partner in one person. And so several months into that, you know, that's when we started talking and throwing the idea back and forth about, you know, what if, what if we were to go monogamous? 

Why would we want to do that? And we  

[00:17:51] Matthew Holliday: I'm sorry.  

[00:17:52] Kristie Conner: really valid question. 

[00:17:55] Buck Remington: so, so part of the question is, is we, we both want kids. And one thing that we both agreed on is. Being open being ethically non-monogamous or being poly when you're trying to conceive can be a huge headache and potentially lead to unforeseen unintended consequences that we didn't want to have to deal with with both of our life goals. 

And with both of our long-term plans, we decided that it was mutually beneficial to go monogamous, which was kind of interesting then, you know, falling out of that for me. My three partners, you know, I talked to one of them and they're like, cool, good for you. Have fun. And you know, then the next one was like, you know, Hey, I was cool when you were just playing the field, but I don't want to be second fiddle and understand that you weren't going to be second fiddle, but you know, sure. 

I get it. You know, things like that. So, so my other relationships kind of came down pretty quickly. So it was just, okay, how do I discuss this with Christie? You know, how do I say, you know, You know, when we shoot, you know, maybe some things aren't on the table anymore. And part of that came down to discussing with my new partner. 

Well, not new at that point, but my partner that I was choosing to go monogamy. No discussing how do we then say, okay, you know, if I'm going to go do a shoot, where's that line between performance and play, you know, what's acting for the camera and what's actually having a good time and enjoying the moment and it could probably happen even if the camera wasn't there. 

And that was a series of good deep conversations where we kind of negotiated that, what those boundaries. while I was still trying to figure that out is when Christie actually figured out that I was going monogamous. And so she kind of beat me to the punch and she was like, Hey, what the fuck? And I'm like, I was trying to get like, I, I wasn't leaving you out at the job. 

I was just trying to figure out where I was. So I knew where I was standing before I talked to you. So at that point it made it very interesting, but now, you know, Fast forward from that almost two years. And my partner and I have a very clear understanding. We know where those boundaries are. We know things that might happen during a photo shoot. 

We know things that might have pictures taken, you know, especially with some of the rope and the Kingston. And she's very aware, aware of Christie and my history and a lot of the things that we've done together that maybe we won't do anymore. Whereas you know, her and Christie have never met My gut feeling is she doesn't have a high desire to, but that's more just cause she's an introvert than anything else.  

[00:20:37] Matthew Holliday: Yeah.  

[00:20:38] Buck Remington: you know, I'll tell her like, Hey Christie and I are going to go hang out this weekend and shoot together. And she's like, all right, cool. See if I may night. And so, so there's still, you know, just going back to everything else that understanding and trust and communication. Being upfront and open about everything and, you know, just building and maintaining that relationship on that side as well. 

[00:21:02] Kristie Conner: I agree. And communication is very, very key when it comes to. The mutual relationship, if you do have another partner outside of that, but communication is key in any relationship, but I feel like it's especially a bottle in that kind of relationship, whether it be amused, Polly, just shooting once and done, whatever.  

[00:21:22] Matthew Holliday: mentioned this when she first approached me about doing this was. The muse relationship. And I mean, it definitely is. If you're talking about some of them use relationships that are in fact lovers where you've got that overlapping relationship. But even if you're not in a sexual relationship with your muse, there's still, like I said, I had a, I had a, a woman that I worked with initially. 

That's the closest I've come to that. My wife could not stand her.  

So nothing was happening. There was no. I mean, I guess there could have been some emotional reason for that, but I can imagine that just even, even if you weren't poly, even if you weren't having a sexual relationship, if you had amused somebody that you spent a lot of time with after work or doing your work, like that could probably cause quite a bit of a relationship if one or both of the partners jealous.  

[00:22:11] Kristie Conner: Oh, yeah. I can see that. 

[00:22:14] Buck Remington: cause, cause even, even if it's not sexual, I mean, even, you know, even kind of, I know you don't want to poke some poly, but even in poly, not all poly relationships have to be sexual relationships. I mean, it could be, you know, one, one example that my partner likes to use when she's introducing people to it. 

You might have something in you where you just really enjoy football and you want, you know, say, you know, say you I don't, I don't presume to speak for you, but the hypothetical you as a straight male, you love football and you want a female friend that will go to football games with you all season long. 

And your walking just has zero interest in that, but you have a female coach. The also loves football and would love to go to these football games with you. And after every game you high-five, or you cry in your beer, depending if it was a winner, a loss and you go home and nothing physical ever happens, but there's still a relationship there. 

There's still an emotional connection there. There's still commonality and she's filling a need that you need to be filled. And you're, you know, you're feeling doing that for each. So in some ways, even if you don't want to put a label on it, that's still a type of policy. And so, so from your wife's perspective, I could honestly very well see how you're spending all this time. 

You're spending all this creative energy with another woman, and if she doesn't have a comparable outlet or she's not comfortable with that, that that could start building that jealousy and resentment then would need to be addressed before it became your reversible.  

[00:23:51] Matthew Holliday: A little bit off target, unless there's anything else you guys wanted to say about polyamory and muses?  

[00:23:59] Buck Remington: Nothing  

[00:24:00] Matthew Holliday: No.  

[00:24:01] Buck Remington: I think, I think we covered it on that one without beating it into the dirt. 

[00:24:06] Matthew Holliday: No, but I think actually I do think I didn't want to kind of harp on one point, maybe beat it into the dirt. a little bit. The creative energy thing that you mentioned, especially in a relationship where things have gotten boring or stale. If you, if you're, let's say, I mean, let's, let's do it because it's 80 to 90% male photographers and 80 to 90% female models. 

Right. If, Yeah. 

if you're a male photographer and you start spending all of this creative energy and time on this model, like Yeah, Just looking at it from a, you know, outside perspective, it's gotta be like, like, why aren't you spending that time on me? Why aren't you loving me?  

[00:24:43] Kristie Conner: that. 

[00:24:44] Buck Remington: I absolutely understand that. And that was, that was actually part of the conversations, my partner and I. And it's for me, it's an interesting perspective because somewhere along the way, I came to the realization that my, my visual desires and my physical desires don't necessarily, they're not the same, you know, there's, there's, there's some overlap and there's definitely some sweet spots in the middle, but they're not identically the same. 

[00:25:11] Matthew Holliday: The Venn diagram of.  

[00:25:13] Buck Remington: right there you have of what you find attractive in different. And, and so my partner is dropped at Georgia. She's absolutely phenomenal, you know, to me visually she's like a 9.8. She's just, she's there. She's just, wow. And every day I wake up and I say, wow, this is the person who wants to spend their life with me. 

You know, how lucky am I?  

[00:25:36] Matthew Holliday: I? feel that way. Every time I look in the mirror, I'm like, I'm like a six, she's like a nine.  

[00:25:42] Buck Remington: But, but then, you know, when I pick up my kids, And even though we've done pictures, like, I don't think about doing pictures with her because I don't see her as a model or a muse. I see her as my life partner, who does all these other wonderful things for me. And, you know, when it comes to taking the pictures, you know, maybe it's because I'm already intimately familiar with her and in so many other ways, That I don't see her through that artist. 

You know, I was going to say land, no pun intended, but I don't see her through that artistic. I see her through the eye of this is this amazing, beautiful, wonderful human who wants to spend their life with me. And it's a different way of looking. And that's, I mean, I don't have many, you know, there's not often that I'm sure if it works, but I don't have many more words to, to be able to describe that without just repeating myself.  

[00:26:40] Matthew Holliday: Yeah, no, I, I have the same problem. I was actually thinking about it. I have taken some portraits of my wife, but like, I don't, I don't, I feel super weird about I feel super weird about that. I mean, even in my last relationship that was not with my wife. She knew that I liked photography and she was like, Hey, you know, I'll be your model sometime, you know? 

And I just, I don't know. It's weirder when. I dunno for me, it's weirder when you're in a relationship with them. I haven't ever asked any of my friends to buy those from me either. So maybe I'm just weird that way. Cause I know that's usually most people's, you know, initial model.  

[00:27:13] Buck Remington: Now to be fair, I will put an ass on that and that my my partners is she's also a fire breather. Just with COVID there's been no public performances. So because there's been no public references, she hasn't had any desire to practice. So she's gotten rusty on. But that's one of those things where it's like, you know, as soon as she picks up that bottle of paraffin, I started looking around for my camera because I'm like, you're going to do something awesome. 

But I feel like in that, in that moment, I'm actually, I'm wanting to capture the fire more than I'm wanting to capture her. It's just convenient. That she's the one that can do that  

[00:27:46] Matthew Holliday: No, no. That makes me want to shoot my wife more. I should spend more time taking pictures of her too. Anyways.  

[00:27:52] Buck Remington: therapy by. 

[00:27:54] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Well, another one of the articles that I was reading mentioned using photography as a medium to create closeness between yourself and someone else, which I thought was kind of interesting because I mean, both because of the natural tendency of humans to become closer when you spend more time with each other. 

But then also having like that project do you, do you feel like you could create amuse relationship when one did not exist through. like trying to do projects with people. I mean, certainly like the familiarity and the time would start to develop some of that trust you guys were talking about.  

[00:28:31] Kristie Conner: And not only the trust, but like the mental connection of like, oh my God, they understand what I'm looking for. And I don't have to beat it into the ground.  

[00:28:40] Matthew Holliday: Hm.  

[00:28:40] Kristie Conner: that's what makes them use relationships so easily. 

[00:28:43] Buck Remington: Yeah. And I think historically that's really what happened. That was kind of the curve between Christy and I to, you know, First time we shot together. There was this great energy, but everything was super professional. Second time we shot together again, same great energy, everything was professional, but a lot of the thoughts behind the eyes, maybe not so professional. 

And then, and then the third, the third time we shot together, all of that energy just bubbled to the surface from both of us. And it was like, you know, what are we doing? You know, it's, you know, we're both blowing each other's minds. Artistically and creatively  

[00:29:22] Matthew Holliday: Sorry.  

[00:29:23] Buck Remington: other. And, and, and so it was just kinda like, you know, it just kind of blossomed into that. 

And I've had other models that I've shot with four or five times, and haven't had that same, you know, rapid growth like that. You know, it's been just professional every time. Like, Hey, you know, we're here and this is what we're going to do, you know, high five, how you doing? I was like kids, whatever. And then we get done with a shoot and high five go on. 

And you know, couple, couple of weeks later, I'm sending out the, you know, here's all your final images  

[00:29:55] Matthew Holliday: again, in my research, I found a list of 20 famous muses, and I'm gonna kind of walk through a few of these guys. I grabbed less than half of them. I figured going through all 20 would be a little ridiculous. I mean monologuing like a super villain.  

[00:30:09] Buck Remington: A history podcast.  

[00:30:12] Matthew Holliday: yeah. That actually would make a really interesting, maybe I will do like a solo podcast on muses, over history or something. I haven't done a solo one for this one yet. And think I was interested enough. Ah, anyways, Camille Claudel, I guess written's assistant lover and muse. According to experts, his work changed noticeably after he met her buck, would you say that your work has changed? Since you started working with Christie.  

[00:30:37] Buck Remington: and, and in multiple directions, And one I had a, you know, and it was one of the things we talked about in the one-on-one interview. You know, I had a longterm project that I wanted to work on that I've, I've gotten a few more people for that. I was just so nervous to bring up. And Christie was the first person that I was actually comfortable with. 

And that was, you know, where I wanted to do, you know, a shoulders up headshot,  

The facial features, mid orgasm When I asked Christie about that, she's like, yeah, let's do it. And I'm like, wait, what, what? 

[00:31:09] Kristie Conner: Yeah. 

[00:31:12] Buck Remington: And so, so, you know, that started getting me over my fear of being able to approach some of these crazier ideas or deeper ideas or more intimate and personal ideas, not necessarily with everybody, but across the board. And at the same time, you know, just through the process of learning and growing. My photography was still continuously improving all through this. 

And so now wanting to do some of these potentially more risky topics, you know, that lit a fire under my ass to make sure that my photography was good enough that I could come at this and really say, no, this is art. This is not just amateur porn to put in my think tank. 

[00:31:54] Kristie Conner: That's good that you can make the difference between the two, honestly. 

[00:31:59] Matthew Holliday: All right. Lee Miller model, muse and lover for man Ray. Apparently they had a relationship that almost drove him to madness. I, I either we talked a little bit about the obsession beforehand, and this definitely seems like one of the, or one of the key famous ones are either of you guys approaching madness.  

[00:32:20] Buck Remington: Not that I'm aware of, but I also feel like if I were, I'd be the last one to know. 

[00:32:27] Kristie Conner: Yeah, same. 

[00:32:29] Matthew Holliday: I have to keep an eye on checking on you guys. I'll do like our regular updates. George Dyer lover and muse a Francis bacon. One of the few men I found so very few men that were muses Patty Smith, singer and songwriter lover, and muse of Robert Maplethorpe. It's interesting. He died early of aids, but she lived beyond them and published a book on their relationship. Yeah, apparently he made her promise to do it because there was some people, you know, oh, she's taken advantage of it. 

She's, you know, cashing in. And he apparently made her do it when he was dying and then Georgia O'Keeffe and Alfred Stieglitz who mentored her, showed her work in his gallery. And then they got married, is interesting because some of there were several of these where they were the assistant to the photographer or assistant to the artist. So I find that kind of interesting too, but there's, I feel like there were a lot of erotic connections between artists and muses, but there are only a few where it specifically mentioned that they were not lovers. Do you think this is more of a selection bias in the article or does this actually represent the majority of artists and these relationships? 

The majority of them are, or are not lovers. I know that I'm asking you to make a judgment call over millions of people that you've never met.  

[00:33:45] Buck Remington: Right. As we say, I don't know if I can honestly answer that. I, I, I can, I can answer for the vast majority of the ones that we learn about in the textbooks, which, you know, that's obvious case I can answer from. That was the case and probably still would be, and at least on an emotional level, if not physical, it still is, but I would not presume to answer for everybody else because, you know, likewise, you know, before Christine and I developed this relationship, you know, just talking to people, you know, and other photographers and other models, you know, I'd often say, you know, I'd love to have him use somebody that I could just throw ideas back and forth. 

And the whole concept of. Being lovers. In addition to that never even entered into that equation. It was just kind of, for me with Christy, it felt like it was a parallel path, not necessarily a required intertwined. 

[00:34:41] Kristie Conner: Yeah, I think it's a case to case basis, but I think overall not only based off of like your research, but also like of people that, I mean, at least me personally, that I know that would have one, it's a case by case basis. I think it's what they're looking for. Exactly.  

[00:35:00] Matthew Holliday: What do you think when guys with camera are, or when kind of, you know, your average model mayhem photographer of which I am one. So I'm not, I'm not saying this to be above or to be like, Ugh. Yeah, this model may have photographers. When they, if they say they're looking for a muse, is that a red flag?  

[00:35:19] Kristie Conner: If I saw someone reach out to me on my ham. And they mentioned that specifically, like in one of their first couple of messages, interactions, I would take it as a grain of salt based off of their portfolio that I have access to whether that's on my ham or a link that they send me or whatever. I mean, everyone's photography. 

You know, bad at one point and it develops and gets better at one point. But if you are obviously a guy with cam and you say that to me, and I can tell that from your pictures, that you're not really dedicated to trying to improve your work. You just want to say you have a portfolio, then that is a red flag. 

But if the opposite happens and they have a great portfolio and they can give you references and all of that, and they can give you a few options of what they would like to use you as a new use for. Then it's easier to roll with. 

[00:36:17] Buck Remington: I agree with pretty much everything Christy said, and even, even coming at it from a male photographer, I have a little bit of a unique perspective in that I did step down from the position, but for about five and a half, six years. That was a leader in AI erotic and fetish photography group. And we had an online communication forum and every couple of months, somebody who was not an active member, who none of us knew who was coming in the discussion forums and be like, I'm looking for a muse to come to my dungeon and take pictures. 

And, you know, all of us are just kind of like. And so, you know, we'd, we'd be polite cause we, we did have a fairly open policy. You had to, you had to break a rule to get kicked out. So, you know, but we would, we'd be like, you know, Hey, just understand. Not everybody in the discussion forums as an active member, that's been vetted by leadership and comes out through events. 

So, you know, any meetups that are not official events, make sure you're safe and have a plan and yada yada, yada and just kind of, you know, reminding everybody to stay safe and communicate about. So, so when you come right out of the gate with that, especially if you don't have a strong portfolio, I would absolutely say it's a red flag, but there's always that chance, you know, red flag isn't necessarily a guarantee, you know, it's a warning, it's, you know what it is, you know, and, and the more of them you have, the more you take them all seriously. 

But uh, you know, if that's the only red. It could be a genuine legitimate request. And so I don't want to say that it's a, you know, it's a hard and fast rule. If that's what they're looking there. If that's what they say they're looking for, they're really just looking to get their dicks out on the regular. They might be, they might not be. And so it just kinda goes back and  

[00:37:56] Matthew Holliday: I mean, I feel like there's way to do that cheaper than paying an art model for two hours of time. Probably.  

[00:38:03] Buck Remington: yeah. I haven't been having, having been around long enough to talk to people on all sides of things. My understanding there is it's just as much the power dynamic as it is, you know, it's more about the power dynamic and the feeling of power than it is. Anything else. 

[00:38:24] Matthew Holliday: So we talked about new photographers and guys with camera who are looking for muses. And you said that it was mostly a red flag based on their port, but there have been instances in the past. Where experience photographers have manipulated models. And we've talked a little bit about it, you know, Terry Richardson and the past others that I can't remember now, but you know, a bunch of famous, famous photographers where it came out, that they had, you know, taken advantage of models is amuse like stating like, oh, you're my muse. 

Is that something that either you guys have ever heard of a photographer using as a weapon.  

[00:39:01] Kristie Conner: I have before that was whenever I was very naive and most easy to be manipulated in the very beginning and a new little fresh bean. Like I said, I learned from it and I've learned. You know, through experience and time that, I mean, it can be used as a weapon if you don't know what you're hearing, you know? 

[00:39:22] Buck Remington: I, I haven't heard of it directly, but I've, I've heard multiple indirect reports. I'm trying to give kind of a high level view without being too descriptive. I don't want to deliberately throw anybody under the bus, like, I know there's a female photographer that I know that her and I have thrown some ideas around and talk about things. 

And there is, there's a model that we both enjoy working with, but over time, another photographer has kind of. Slowly kind of almost groomed this model into being exclusively his, and you know, we're watching this from the outside and it's like, well, you know, if it's essential and healthy, good for them. 

But my female photographer friend is a little bit more closer to the situation than I am. And she, you know, she had some concerns over it. And so whether it really was healthy or not. And so. It's kind of one of those things where it's like, you know, there's some gut feelings and I'm absolutely certain on the global scale, it does happen. 

But as far as being directly aware, I, all I have is hearsay and third-party. 

[00:40:36] Matthew Holliday: It's actually. So that calls back to what we talked about briefly before, about the possessiveness and exclusivity. And you guys were like, oh no, that's not really part of the mutual relationship, but you guys are on a, what I hope is a very healthy relationship. So maybe that's kind of the, the exclusivity thing may be one of those red flags. 

If, if, if a photographer wants you to be exclusive and be as muse and as you know, pushing for, well, you know, this is how we, this is how. Share our creative energy in this sacred, sacred right of connection or something.  

[00:41:08] Kristie Conner: I feel like people could totally take that to their advantage. 

[00:41:11] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Sex magic. Everybody knows sex. Magic is the most potent magic.  

[00:41:17] Buck Remington: Yes, but, but yeah, I was just going to say that kind of goes back to what I mentioned earlier where like one red flag. Okay. That's a warning, three red flags. Take that 10 times as serious as one red flag, you know, I guess it's almost exponential. 

[00:41:35] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Go back up. So, all right. So speaking on the subject of kind of desire and the erotic connections between photographers and how an awful lot of photographers. Well, a lot of, a lot of people, I shouldn't specifically call it a photographers, seem to think lover. When they hear muse, I have a fun quote from Augusta Roden. 

I expressed in a loud voice. What all are distinct desire, desire, what a formidable stimulant. So I have a private theory that about 90% of male achievement is driven by trying to get laid. Does that make the art better or worse or is it just a morally neutral fact?  

[00:42:18] Kristie Conner: I think it's more of the morally neutral had. 

[00:42:22] Buck Remington: I think it absolutely depends on the individuals and the dynamics involved, but I would lean towards morally. I don't know. I mean, the, the, the, the quote, I absolutely agree with it. It's just, it's just one of those things, you know, at the end of the day, mentally one, one thing, and it's not potatoes.  

[00:42:42] Matthew Holliday: I don't know, fries, tasty. 

[00:42:44] Buck Remington: that's true. 

They are they're, you know, it's, it's, it's just whether you like the argument or not. That's just biologically how we're wired. We just choose to be civilized and. If not genuinely repressed because repression leads to its own set of problems, but constructively appreciate and deal with that, that it can be, it can be managed and contained and you can be civil and you can be proper and you can not do and say things that are just going to be like enter dogs, you know, but, but that hard biological fact is still there. 

And I think sometimes, especially. If you're in that point where you are in try-hard mode to, to get better, because you do want to complete that biological function, you know, that could push you to Excel in whatever it is, whether it's your day job or your creative side, or going out and hunting the biggest moose or whatever, you know, you know, that, that drive to just be one step better than those around you. 

And at the end of that, I've I really feel like that drive is coming from that male bravado that is trying to get late because that's how we've been wired for millions of years. That's how our population survive. 

[00:44:03] Matthew Holliday: I am incredibly amused at the thought of to try and to find the biggest moose is and be like, I'm going to get back and Katie's going to be like, ah, you shot the biggest moose.  

[00:44:15] Kristie Conner: I mean, it's pretty hot. 

[00:44:23] Buck Remington: Meanwhile, most of them are like, just be here for me and like  

[00:44:25] Matthew Holliday: You know, when most men set the floor so low.  

[00:44:33] Buck Remington: valid point. 

[00:44:35] Matthew Holliday: So here's another famous painter, Andrew Wyeth. He made 240 drawings and paintings of his muse Helga Andrew's wife said that he thought they did not have sex because that would have lost the magic in the paintings. Any of this, this actually kind of goes with what you're talking about, kind of channeling the desire or the, the interest into being more productive with it.  

[00:45:01] Kristie Conner: Yeah. I mean, I feel like you shouldn't, I mean, I get it from both perspectives, like the photographer or the painters and the wife, like as the wives, there's the trust that you have to have for that means relationship from the house. And, but you still shouldn't have the mindset of, well, if your art's that good, you must have had sex to have that good art, right? 

Like that's, it's pretty gaslighting, honestly. from the painter's perspective, I feel like the same thing. Like, you should just appreciate your art without assuming that you and your muse are doing something under the rug. 

[00:45:47] Buck Remington: Right. 

[00:45:49] Matthew Holliday: I feel like under the ride would be a little uncomfortable.  

[00:45:52] Kristie Conner: So,  

[00:45:53] Matthew Holliday: scratching.  

[00:45:57] Kristie Conner: I mean, if you liked that pain is pleasure, you know, 

[00:46:00] Matthew Holliday: Let's finish up with one last question. What do photographers think they're looking for when they say they're looking for a muse and let's let's, we're not going to talk about the guys in camera. We know, 

what they're thinking. They're thinking what their John's weather Johnson's. So, but what do more professional photographers think they're looking for when they say that or they're thinking about it?  

[00:46:24] Buck Remington: I mean for me, I've I've I feel like I've already said it with, you know, like, this is my perspective and maybe I'm just projecting that on everybody else, but I like to feel like it's on the same page. It's just having somebody that, you know, you know, and trust and you can come to. You're more creative ideas, you know, ma no, I say dangerous. 

I don't necessarily mean like physically dangerous, but creatively dangerous, like outside the norm, outside the bubble, you know, I want to do this thing that's never been done before. And, and, you know, will you help me with that? And just having somebody that. You know, is frequently available and on a, on a similar wavelength, it says, yes. 

And then we'll also come back to you with, I've had this crazy idea and I know no other photographer will want to shoot that. So will you shoot it with me? And, and the ability to say yes. And so that's, that's my opinion. That's what, you know, if I was looking for another muse today, that's what I would be looking for. 

There's probably three or four other models that I would call. And if they said no, okay, moving on, you know, or maybe I won't have a muse for awhile. That's fine. Because again, it's something that needs to grow organically. 

[00:47:38] Kristie Conner: Yeah. 

[00:47:39] Buck Remington: You know, at the same time I have no doubts that I'm just projecting that on everybody else. 

I don't want to presume to speak for other photographers, but I feel like that's my hope that when somebody says they're looking for a muse, that's what they're looking. 

[00:47:54] Kristie Conner: I agree. I think it's, it should be someone that you can express yourself to without fear or judgment or being shut down for not only your ideas, but like your work overall.  

[00:48:08] Matthew Holliday: It's interesting. And this is probably coming again. Like I said, I haven't had that relationship. So this is probably coming from a place of more I don't know, naivety. Inexperience. But when I think, like, what would I want out of somebody that I would call them use is what I'm looking for is excitement. 

Like I'm. So, you know, you flip through model mayhem, you flip through Instagram and you're like, ah, she's pretty, but she's not really like, she doesn't really, it's not somebody that I want to be like, oh my gosh, I have to shoot with her. And then you see someone you want to shoot with and you're like, oh yeah, that's great. 

You know, there's a, there's a quote from. I don't remember her name. She's a super famous photographer. She's still shooting. She talks about her portraits and she says that she falls in love with them a little bit when she shoots a portrait. And like, when I, when I'm looking for people to shoot with, like, that's what I'm looking for. 

So I'm looking for somebody that like generate some excitement and I don't necessarily mean sexual excitement, but I mean, like,  

[00:48:59] Kristie Conner: Yeah.  

[00:48:59] Matthew Holliday: Like I'm really, oh, man. I really want to shoot with this person. And then when I think Migos, I think of somebody that almost like regenerates that excitement.  

[00:49:07] Kristie Conner: Yes. 

[00:49:08] Buck Remington: Yeah.  

[00:49:08] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. There's somebody that, that fills up your creative battery.  

[00:49:12] Kristie Conner: Yes. 

[00:49:12] Buck Remington: know exactly what you're talking about. And I want to take a minute and go back to one of your previous episodes with some of your  

[00:49:20] Matthew Holliday: someone's listening to this. Oh God. Just.  

[00:49:24] Kristie Conner: Jesus. 

[00:49:25] Buck Remington: It shows up in my feed and you've got like other people that I know I'm like, yeah, I'm going to listen to this episode. But there was the episode you did with anesthesia may And  

Don't remember Harrison was, but yes. So in that episode, you know, when you were talking about photographers, sitting on them and it might've been, you'd brought it up. 

It might've been one of the ladies that brought it up, but somebody brought up, you know, like especially male photographers and, you know, you've got your whole spectrum of quality and what they're looking for out of that, But at the end of the day, you know, we all have the things that we look for and that we like. 

And a lot of times that's reflected in our photography and I will be the first to admit, when you look through my risque work, you're going to see a lot of curvy women, not quite, you know, bone thin, but not quite super plump, but you know, all of that, that gray area in between, because know that is what I'm attracted to. 

And that's what. I think for me, makes my art the best way that I can see it. But you know, when you're scrolling through Instagram, when you're talking about that, I'll see somebody's picture and they're like, it'll catch my attention. I'll go look at their portfolio and the other work that they've posted and it'll be, you know, exactly what you're saying. 

Like, oh my goodness, I love this person's energy. I want to shoot. And they may fall well outside of that window of what I'm actually attracted to it. Maybe just, you know, really just their creative energy that I'm drawn to. And then sometimes you get to that shoot and that energy is there and it's just like, holy cow, this is amazing. 

I'm so glad I shot with this person, even though they're  

[00:50:58] Matthew Holliday: Sometimes it's not. Yeah.  

[00:51:00] Buck Remington: And sometimes it's like, whoa, you're is like a complete 180 from what comes through in the pictures. And you're like, how do you even get these pictures? You know, the, the energy just isn't there and, and I've had shoots like that and it's like, it's all. 

I mean, it's, it, it, it quickly becomes work and you're like looking at your clock, like is the two hours up yet? Am I 

[00:51:22] Kristie Conner: Oh, my God. 

[00:51:23] Buck Remington: of there?  

[00:51:24] Matthew Holliday: Yeah.  

[00:51:25] Buck Remington: And, it's, you know, again, not wanting to throw any, any specifics under the bus, but, but there was one, like, you know, this model has amazing, amazing. 

And like, you know, throw some ideas back and forth and everything's jiving and we go to shoot. And the first thing they want to do is blaze. And I I'm okay with that. I'm like, do what you need to do to get in the zone. The zone was not my zone and it was, it was just kinda, you know, okay. You know, this is this is interesting. 

These pictures are not at all. And so, you know, as an artist, I'm improvising, I'm adapting to the situation. So I'm still taking good. But they are not at all the style and energy that I had in my head coming into things.  

[00:52:08] Matthew Holliday: Yeah.  

[00:52:09] Buck Remington: And so, you know, kind of going back to what you were saying, you know, really, you know, finding that energy out of the gate and then confirming that energy with multiple shoots is really where you can start getting into that development. 

I feel like. 

[00:52:24] Matthew Holliday: Yeah. 

this goes back to what you said too, just because you find somebody attractive, like walking down the street, you know, you may find a dozen, you may walk by a dozen people you find are attractive. That doesn't mean that you go up to each one of them and start hitting on them and start trying to ask them out, et cetera, et cetera, 

[00:52:38] Kristie Conner: Yeah.  

[00:52:38] Buck Remington: Right. 

[00:52:41] Matthew Holliday: norms of behavior.  

[00:52:46] Kristie Conner: And plus people always can act way different than a shoot than the personality they portray. Instills. Yeah. Like you can love their art, their portfolio, you get with them. And like mark said, you're like, oh my God. Like, we really do not find like we have some great shots, but I really don't want to work with you again. 

And I think that goes from the models to photogs, like each perspective across the board. It's pretty much the same. 

[00:53:14] Buck Remington: Yup. 

[00:53:16] Matthew Holliday: Well, I think we're just about out of time guys. So if anybody wanted to continue the conversation with you, where would they find you online?  

[00:53:23] Kristie Conner: For me, you can mainly find me at only fans.com/come on her or on Twitter at Chrissy Conner 97. 

[00:53:32] Buck Remington: I did it the hard way. So everywhere I am, I have a slightly different name. Instagram. My risky work is fuck underscore Remington, underscore photography and my vanilla work, which is. Kind of in flux, I'm rebuilding that account a little bit is photography underscore by underscore book. And I do have an only fans that limited number of posts just because of the nature of the way only fans works. 

In my opinion is bad for models, but it's worse for photographers, but I'm there anyway, and that is just fuck Remington. All one word. No.  

[00:54:14] Matthew Holliday: And with that, we're done. Check us out@thesfwphotographypodcast.com on Twitter is at NSFW photography, Instagram at the NSFW photography podcast. And subscribe on your favorite podcast app.